Samantha Spittle 0:00
Well, I'm so excited to have you back, Carrie.

Kerry Thomas 0:02
Yes, I always love coming on. Well, I'm

Samantha Spittle 0:05
excited, we are talking about all things aging, and with you being with conquer the chaos, I know that you work with a lot of people who are kind of going through that aging process, downsizing, and things like that. And, you know, we've talked about being in the sandwich generation where you, you're helping your parents, you also have your own kids. And I just feel like, the stuff is overwhelming. And as you and I have talked about it, and you talked about on your TEDx talk, all of our stuff is connected, the physical, the emotional, mental, spiritual. So I'm excited to kind of dive into some of that emotional stuff, but also some practical tips to help us move forward because we don't want to be stuck, either held down by our things, or other people's things. So go ahead and introduce yourself, Carrie.

Kerry Thomas 0:51
Yes, thank you, Carrie Thomas, as you said, owner of conquer the chaos, and I am an organizing and productivity coach, I have a lot of different. I don't know passions, I work with business owners in their offices. And as we've talked before, that's, you know, my favorite, what I'm most known for, is helping people organize offices. I also have a women's group where we dive into this stuff, the home office, but then we also do all the internal, like you said, emotional, mental, spiritual clutter. And then I actually work with some college students, helping them coaching and time management and getting tasks and things like that. So when you asked about talking about aging, as i Oh, my gosh, this is so perfect, I've had more and more and more requests. Some of my long term clients back when I did more residential and home organizing, were people who were looking to downsize or families who hired me, because, sadly, you know, a loved one had passed, and they needed help. And people who Oh my gosh, she talked about emotional, there's no more emotional clutter, than when you are looking at making decisions from a long, full life or generations of lawful lives that have now fallen in your lap. And it is, it's more, it's more common than you would think. And so I do have some things I really, I really want to get off my chest, I really want to share with people to make it easier. Because I've seen all parts of it. I've seen, you know that just tough? How do we sell it? Where do we donate it? What do we do with it, I've seen the paperwork and the financial side of things, you know, we have no idea how mom and dad did their taxes, or where their important documents are, and all those type of things. And it's, it's not just helping parents or our elders, but it's also now looking at what small changes are, what things can I implement now, just to make life easier, you know, because sadly, it's, it's not always aging, you know, tragedies can happen at any age, but there are some very practical things. So I'm super excited to talk about this today.

Samantha Spittle 3:12
It's funny, because my own personal journey, you know, with seen my parents help their parents out. And, you know, thankfully, they were able to help with the downsize, you know, the, my grandparents kind of helped with their own downsizing, you know, my one set moved from a farm to in town. And so that helped a lot. And then my grandma kind of progressively moved from her house, to an apartment, and then to an assisted living facility. And I could see how helpful it was that, you know, she was there during that process that they did it together, because I saw, especially with my mom, so much of the emotional guilt. And I think this is where this shame thing comes through with, you know, when you're kind of stuck in the middle, and you're trying to help your parents and as we talked before, about respecting your parents autonomy and you know, their emotional ties to stuff and then it brings up your emotional ties. And, you know, I feel like there's so many opportunities for tension and whatnot. And so it just kind of, for me just gets overwhelming. And so, you know, I can see how my parents are starting to work on their stuff, because we joke like, I'm, you know, we're going to be stuck with it the kids, so it's like, they can kind of help with it. And it's made me want to declutter, too, because I remember finding my grandma, she had like a Valentine from like, 1923 or something. She was born like 1918. So it's like, oh, my gosh, this she was five years old. I mean, this is at this point. It's like 100 years old, almost. How could I throw this away? And so now when I see stuff, I'm like, Oh, it's so much easier to throw it away when it's like two years old then when it's 90 years old. Like I can't do it. So anyway, we can I'm excited to hear this because I have such an emotional tie to stuff I mean, I still have stuff that I decluttered. But yet it's still sitting in my why haven't moved it out. It's still like sitting on the table. So, yes.

Kerry Thomas 5:11
You said so many things. They're just in that one little monologue. I'm like, wait, wait.

Samantha Spittle 5:17
That's what I do. What I like to do with therapy, and pretty much everything, like let me dump out all my thoughts. And then you just like PC organize. I'm 30. Yes, exactly. But we start wherever you want. Because I know that, you know, we are not alone in this. There's lots of people that are kind of going through this no matter what stage they're at. So jump.

Kerry Thomas 5:36
Okay, I'll just yeah, I'll jump in with one. So one of the things that you said was, you were able to help through the process, and that the process was more systematic or wasn't, you know, like something drastic had happened, someone got sick, someone had to sell their house, that type of thing. So when you have that luxury of helping through the process, and it's good and bad, it's good, because it's more gentle on the person who is having to deal with it, especially, you know, the older that they are, it's also bad for what you said, because we have more time, to you know, just, like hold it and touch it. And so just a couple of thoughts on that. One is, I've had success, and I've seen families have success, when they don't approach it from, we need to get this place organized, you need to declutter, those feel, it feels almost like an attack, like you're judging. And I'm just going to say parents, for the sake of this, it could be could be anyone, let's say you're it feels like you're judging your parents or telling them what to do. And that goes against, like you said, with the autonomy. So what what I've seen very useful is when you come at it from the angle of we are improving things, a lot of people now want to safely age in place. That is a big desire for a lot of people, they don't want to be you know, shipped off to a home, you know, that type of thing. And so if you can approach it from that angle, like we want you to say and safely agent place, and but we are worried about some of these safety issues, overflowing bookshelves that could fall down, you know, lots of things on the floor that people could trip over, I had one, I had one client, and she was so fabulous with her dad. And he had like a monthly I don't know, like poker game kind of thing. And she was, she was so good. And she always framed it from well, when your friends come over dad, they need a clear path to the bathroom, when your friends come over, they need. And it almost sounds now but I'm saying it, it sounds condescending. It wasn't in the moment. And it was it just it lessens that feeling of being told what to do. And so that's one way to frame it, like, you know, from people wanting to age in place. And so if you can start slowly, that's the best way to do it one room at a time, one group of things at a time. One thing that's really, really helpful, and this is not just for seniors, this is for anyone. So if I came into your house to help you, let's say you mentioned clothes when we were talking earlier. So let's say I come in your house to help you organize and declutter clothes. And your goal is to donate a lot of your old clothes, it's going to work much better if I hold it, and not you. As soon as we touch the fabric, we smell it smell is, you know, our strongest memory inducing sense that we have, you know, if it has a scent, and we touch it and feel it, it's so much harder to let it go. Even if it's five sizes too big or too small, and it's torn. All of a sudden, those emotions come back. And I teach so much with my clients when they're trying to create their ideal life to tap into the emotions. And that's where your power lies of your unconscious subconscious. But it works in reverse when you're trying to get rid of things.

Samantha Spittle 9:13
I need you to say that again. Because that's so good about verse to tap into our emotions because it's as you were walking through that I was like, I could totally see myself touching it. I'm like, Oh, I love it. So you know, I just even as I was acting it out, I I held it like I was hugging it and so so just walk one more through that that opposite I thought that was really powerful.

Kerry Thomas 9:32
Sure. So and and many people have heard this or work in this way. But the more things you can do when you're creating your ideal life that tap into your subconscious, the better your subconscious. I don't have the statistics in front of me but it's something like you know, 100 million times stronger and faster speeds. And it's like that when I have the statistics in front of me they're staggering how much your subconscious is really running the show. And so that's why with my clients, I always tell them like step one is to feel what you want your future to feel like, state your vision, feel into your vision, like, even even if it's an office, what do you want to accomplish in this space? How do you want to feel when you sit down at your computer, that type of thing, because the emotion and the feeling is where your power is, like I always say feelings are fuel. So like, if we feel really good and energized, that's great fuel for getting our tasks done, or, you know, whatever we want to accomplish. If we're feeling like depressed or dejected, rejected, or, you know, whatever it is, that's not good fuel for anything, you're not going to do your best work those days. So that power of the subconscious is really, really good. But the reverse happens when we're trying to release things and let go of them. Because if we can feel the good feeling that we used to have when we use this pot to cook spaghetti, even though the pot handle is broken, and you know, etc, it's harder to let it go. Because that subconscious is that strong. So it's amazing when we can tap into it and use it for good, but it also fights against us when we're trying to let things go. Yeah. Yeah, so it's, it's very helpful. Even, that's why I tell people to have an accountability partner, buddy, or, you know, private, if you don't, if you're not working with a professional that comes in like, you know, private girlfriend, say, hey, I'll take you for coffee or lunch or buy a bottle of wine, if you come, just sit with me in my room while I do this. And if other people can touch it and hold it up. It's much easier to release it and let it go. That is a huge tip.

Samantha Spittle 11:48
It feels like it should be small. But I'm just imagine like that. I think that is actually really huge. So thank you for that.

Kerry Thomas 11:56
Yeah, so you can, if you're helping, you know, helping someone downsize or declutter if you can hold it. It's also really helpful if you honor their wishes. So this is why it's very, it's so much easier to do even though it seems like it wouldn't. It seems like Let's send them to those salon for the day and we'll organize this place that almost always the older the person is, the more that backfires. Unless, unless they're one of those people that are like, yeah, cleaned up, I don't care, you know, but those people are out there. But what I've found is the with any age, if you try to go into someone else's environment, your mom might have her favorite, you know, hobbies, things like craft things, or a favorite books, or your grandmother might like, one blanket over another. But they're all you can't tell when you look in our environment. So helping people pull out their favorites and knowing where their favorites are and putting their favorites in inaccessible places really good. Ask those questions, like so we're not only pulling out what's important, but what are your favorites? A lot of people the older they are they have duplicates. I mean, I have two tickets, and I literally sold everything I owned and move to the beach, and I still have duplicates, like I still have two pairs, no three, like why I got rid of everything, I still think there's scissors. So so it happens. And so that's an easy place to start, if someone is resistant to downsizing or decluttering. They say okay, let's just go through and get rid of like the obvious trash and look at the duplicates, you know, how many of these insert name do you need, that's always a good place to start as well.

Samantha Spittle 13:48
And something you mentioned about the having someone help you and kind of honoring it, I helped a friend after losing a spouse, we went through his stuff, you know, when when she was kind of you know, when she was ready. And I thought I would do it for her, you know, to help that. And she came back a few minutes later, and we ended up going through it together. And she was able to like walk down memory lane, which you know, is painful, but also very honoring, and I think gave that nice closure. And, you know, incredibly sad but but I just realized like the power of and that's when you know, he talked about holding space with people and being there. It might not seem like a lot, but I think it really was and we talked about decluttering when we're aging but you know you mentioned before when there's tragedies and things like that too, that's really hard and you know, we were able to walk through it kind of together and she was able to reminisce and then also find the really important things you know that she wanted to keep right? It's just it can be a really good opportunity to walk down memory lane together to so

Kerry Thomas 14:59
it can actually I would strongly strongly I don't know if people hear nothing else. But this next statement, I would strongly encourage you as you're going through this process, and they're telling me stories, record them, it's so valuable later on to have things in their voice. And those stored those stories, you know, we're not as much of a storytelling society as we used to be. And I think each generation maybe even tell stories less than less. So don't let those stories disappear. Yeah, so record them, it's really important. And you said one other thing when you're talking about tragedy that I want to emphasize. And I worked with a gentleman, he was only in his 40s. And he had lost his wife, and had two young girls, they actually, well, a couple points here. So they waited two years, before they hired me. Nothing wrong with that. Everything in their home was exactly I mean, it, it appeared like she went out to the store and just didn't come back two years later. And that's fine. That's what they were comfortable with. When they were ready, you know, they did hire me to help. And so if you're helping a friend or family member at you know, go through something like this, you mentioned saving some of these important things. So this is true for tragedy, aging, anything, decide, like, it's okay, you know, I'm gonna keep letters or mementos. And one thing, and this is true for any type of home organizing, decide what container, you're going to keep it in, for this special box, this bin, whatever it is, and then allow yourself or the other person to keep as much fits in that box. And that helps with the decision making, it helps you truly keep the special ones are the ones you know, I always tell parents, you don't have to keep every paper, keep the ones maybe where the kids did like those about me, you know, where they say in their own voice that you know, something like that, or has handprints or you know, those types of things. But it's true, even if it's your great grandmother's things, you're not ready, you know, for her to let go or for you to let go decide on a container and keep it in the container. And I did the same sort of thing. Oh my gosh, I've forgotten about this family until just now. This was such an honor. I was so honored to work with them. And he we finally last thing we did was their bedroom. Because you know that was hard her clothes and that type of thing. But she had boxes of her mementos that he didn't even realize were up in the closet. And there were love letters from like her first boyfriends, people he didn't even know that type of thing that she has saved. And I'm smiling because it was. It was it was it was fun. And it was uplifting. I know it doesn't sound like it would be but he actually he handed me the box. And he said, Okay, you look through this. And he said, pull out the ones that my girls because they're young, that my girls, when they're in their 30s are going to sit and laugh and cry and drink wine and remember, oh my gosh, I'm

Samantha Spittle 18:12
gonna cry. I'm trying, I'm tearing up to

Kerry Thomas 18:15
it. So it's so it was such an honor, because he let me choose like, which of his wife's memories? And but he did it from that perspective, like, what will my girls want to see? You know, he could picture them in their 30s glass of wine, you know, sitting around in their sweats, like opening looking through mom's stuff. And so it was a very gentle honoring way to handle it. And so I think I think that's the approach we have to take no matter the age.

Samantha Spittle 18:43
Yeah, I think that's, of course, a monk still tearing up thinking about it. Because yeah.

Kerry Thomas 18:49
So the big, I would be remiss if we didn't cover the big question that I always get. And that is, what do we do with this stuff? How do we get rid of it? Where do we because so before I go into that, one of the best things that I mean, we could even do it now because sadly, we did segue into tragedy a bit. But we can even do it now. Yeah, one of the best things you can do for your family, for your loved ones, is to ahead of time before anything happens to you. Let them know if certain things you want to keep in the family of certain things you want donated to a very special charity. Or if you're okay with all of it just going to like you know, purpleheart come in a truck ticket. Let people know that because that is such a burden. People are like what do I do with this and I have to find a good home and that type of thing. And if you truly don't care where your things go, and you just want to remove that burden, let people know. And if it's appropriate to ask, you know, aging people In your life, if that wouldn't feel uncomfortable, ask that question. Yeah, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's hard. It's harder for some people than others, but none of us are going to live forever. And it is a huge gift. If you let people know, like, hey, you know what, you can just give all my clothes to Salvation Army. I am perfectly cool with that. Because people agonize over it, and they're left with that decision.

Samantha Spittle 20:28
Well, there's so much guilt, I feel like with, um, you know, the same is true. And I think we talked about it about the medical stuff, you know, to also make your medical wishes known, you know, if the other end of the it where it's, you know, yeah, all the decisions you can make figure out, I have been the type that I don't like, I've been in this mindset of, oh, I don't know. So you just decide, but shifting my perspective to that puts so much pressure on your loved ones, or the people you know, left, that you know, better to just, yeah, share as much as you can. And if we're able to do the work when we can if we are able to do it before the crisis, just to help.

Kerry Thomas 21:03
Yeah, that you just said a key, you said do the work before it's needed. Yeah. So that is also a very good angle with a lot of people. Like I mentioned the dangers of bookshelves as people get older. I had one client who had his dad, where he was really able to downsize his books, which were the love of his life, because he said, Well, you know, before, like, you don't want them to be donated when you're dead, like you want to know now, like, these people are enjoying them. And you know, that type of things. That's a lesson

Samantha Spittle 21:38
that I've learned from looking at stuff that was saved for a long time, is like, oh, man, this is old now. But it's like with clothes. I've, you know, oh, let me save this. Because especially like a friends have hand me downs for my kids. But it's like, a few sizes too big. Well, the saver in me is like save it will need it. Not thinking like, oh, wait trends change, there could be someone that's wearing it now. Because maybe by the time it fits, it's out of style. And so when you look at the bigger things, it's like, oh, this is true for all of it, you know, kind of saving it for something when someone could use it. Now, that's that's been a good perspective shift too, for me.

Kerry Thomas 22:17
Yeah, exactly. Why let it sit in a garage or an attic when someone needs that art, which really enjoy it now? Yeah, I like the last little lingering thought from what we you said way earlier, I was just gonna get that one out. And that is, it's also this is true for everyone. But especially true if you're helping someone who's resistant is to have like that 90 day test that 90 Day box, which a lot of us have heard the trick of like turning clothes around on the hangers. And if you don't wear it in a season or a year, you know, then it goes. But as you're helping someone, let's say you start with one room, have a box or a bin it for those iffy things and let it sit there for I mean, a lot of people say 90 days and then if it's not used, then it's becomes more obvious like okay, we can let it go.

Samantha Spittle 23:09
Definitely. Alright, so you said in the beginning, there is stuff that you need to share. So you touched on a lot from just me getting to dump all my stuff on you. But for the stuff that you you need to shout from the rooftops? What haven't we covered yet?

Kerry Thomas 23:25
A lot about important information and paperwork. Again, this is true for everyone. It's Oh, I think because that's what I do the most is I mean, my clients nicknamed me the paper ninja. I've I've sorted more paper in my life than anyone could ever imagine. But I've seen the backend. I've seen when people discover that there's a huge tax mess with the IRS. I've seen when people can't even get in there compete, like online banking to pay bills after a spouse has passed. I've seen you know, just when there's fights within a family because we'll there's, you know, just the documents are outdated, and it's not like sunshine and roses, but it is grown up and adulting to have your ducks in a row. Help your family members have their ducks in a row. We never know when something's going to happen. I mean, no one's promised tomorrow. And especially as people are aging, you know, it becomes more and more of a it's about you know it's going to happen sooner or later.

Samantha Spittle 24:35
It's a reality it becomes more and more reality.

Kerry Thomas 24:39
So just things like make sure that you know what accounts are out there. I was helping a gentleman whilst I still help him because he's like a part of my heart now. But I helped. I was helping him for many years on a more regular basis. And he was never married. He has no children hate his parents are gone. He has very little family has one person that he's close with that he's made, you know, designated beneficiary and stuff, but nobody knew he had so many, like so many different stock accounts, I can't even count. Some of them have a lot of money. Some of them have like one stock. Just that's an extreme example, he has now consolidated and put them all into a brokerage account. And I'm so so happy. And it makes my life much easier doing because finally, but that's an extreme example, but make sure people know what's out there. You know, there's so many people that do sadly passed away, and no one knows no one knows that there's a safe deposit box at XYZ bank with you know, 200 grand in cash, like no one knows. It, things like that really happen. And passwords. Make sure that, you know, sadly, the older people are they keep their passwords written like in a notebook, which is a huge safety issue. But make sure people know where to find your passwords or encourage encourage, even for less tech savvy people, encourage your parents or grandparents to use some type of password protector where you only have to remember one password like LastPass or something like that. And then make sure that the people who need it have that password. Just things like that. I mean, sadly, it's both for end of life. And if there becomes a memory issue. Yeah, you know that that's a very real concern as well, that, you know, people just aren't quite short anymore, where they have their money or insurance policies or things like that. So, yes, it's it's not fun. And like this client, I'm talking about he procrastinated. For years, five years from when I first started saying, like, okay, all this is organized now, but we need to take it, you know, he procrastinate a long time. And part of that was finding the right person, it took him that long to find an accountant and an attorney that he trusted. Yeah. But it's Yeah, I mean, it's like I said, it's not always fun, but it makes life so much easier. And it truly is a gift to the people that need to figure it out after someone's gone.

Samantha Spittle 27:22
Yeah, for sure. And you just said something that reminded me, you talked about, you know, finding someone they can trust. And you and I had talked offline about, we're in the context, this month of like, aging, you know, but with all the stuff that chaos of the paperwork, the chaos of the stuff, that there can be a lot of shame wrapped into that you know, the way you've basically the way you've lived your life, you know, and now letting someone in to see whether it's all the stuff you saved or didn't save or had an order didn't have an order. And I think that's for some of the tensions get brought up between families. And I talked on when we were talking about that middle generation, if you're kind of thinking about things where everyone gets along, and it's just this peaceful thing, but there's a lot of drama when someone gets sick, or someone passes, you know, it's those generational things that have been pushed down for a long time start to bubble up. And so that whole idea of you know, you might want to bring someone in to help but maybe your siblings don't, or maybe your parents don't. And so, do you have any insight on kind of how to overcome some of those emotional barriers?

Kerry Thomas 28:25
Yes, I will say that those emotional barriers are real. More times than that, then people would probably believe I've been hired and called in, because of that shame. There are, there are many people. So if you're hearing this, you're not alone, get out there many people who haven't filed taxes. I had a husband and wife and she was the breadwinner, he was disabled. He was doing their taxes and never filing them. And she didn't find out until he passed away. And she was faced with it shouldn't happen, something she was dealing with. When she was also grieving. It was really, really tragic. But there is a lot of shame. If you know if there I've had people that didn't want their this well, one person I shouldn't say people, one person didn't want their family to know that they've been married before. So they hired me to help with that paperwork and dealing with everything and like quite figuring out yeah, there. I mean, I know your thing is shaming people have a lot of shame, but it's, if you can take the steps before the stress before the illness before that, whatever it is before the you know, memory problems. kick in. If you can take those steps. It's so much easier, just bite the bullet just, you know, help them with their paperwork, help them downsize, declutter, whatever, it's so much easier. It doesn't seem fun, but it's no

Samantha Spittle 30:02
Well, then it seems like then you can enjoy the aging process, you know, we kind of joke getting older, you know, you you care less what other people think and all this stuff, and there's kind of freedom. And then I think, too, when we have all these shame stories wrapped around maybe the choices we've made in life or something, and in different seasons, it's hard to talk about. And maybe if we start dealing with the physical stuff earlier, when it's not in crisis, or things like that, or, you know, as we start to kind of go downhill, or our parents are going downhill, you know, health and whatnot, not able to do as many maybe if the practical things, maybe then you're not overwhelmed with all this resentment and frustration, because of all the things that need to get done. You know, maybe it would allow us to just sit and enjoy our time together. And, you know, the older we get, like you said, it's the reality that we we really don't have all the time in the world. And do we want to spend these last times together, just working, working, working or enjoying, finally,

Kerry Thomas 31:00
that's such a good point. And the sooner we start, the more joyful, you can make the process, because you could say, like, Alright, we're gonna come over, you know, every other Saturday and, and make it fun. But you know, that option is taken away from you when you're in crisis mode. So if you can start earlier, you can make the process more peaceful and joyful for sure. And sadly, we've spoken through this, as if everyone has the type of relationship where you can go in and work with your parents. And that is, that is not true. That's, that's sadly not true. So there have to be different options and approaches. When people are estranged. You know, that's a, that's a very real thing. So maybe if someone's estranged, maybe all you can do is get them to, at some point, let you know, like, hey, if anything were to happen to you, you know, where can I find important stuff? Or if anything were to happen to you? Would you like me to, you know, have an estate sale and donate the money to the, you know, veterans or, like, you know, maybe just the short, quick conversations, if that's even possible, because I mean, that that is real people in those situations, you know, that the options are fewer, but you can try, you can you can, you know, stick that out and maybe find out a few answers to a few of the bigger things as far as important papers. Can we just, you know, what do you want done with your stuff when you're gone? That kind of thing? And it's, oh, my gosh, I mean, whenever you're talking about families, it's also individual, and there's always so much emotion, and there's a lot you know, it's like, God. So I do understand that. So if anyone's been listening and been like, oh, yeah, well, that sounds great. Who's gonna go over and sit with my dad, because he doesn't let anyone in? You know, I know, that's a real thing. I know, that's a real thing. So just, again, give yourself grace, do what you can. Maybe some of the things you've heard during this podcast will help you with, after the fact decisions.

Samantha Spittle 33:08
I'm really glad you touched on that. Because Exactly, and that's one of the things that with shame, you know, kind of at the end now wrapping it up, it's like, but I think that's a huge part of aging is when everything's framed in the context of, you know, lovely family, but you have these really heavy traumas and things like that, whether they're ignored whether you have boundaries in place. I mean, there's so many reasons people are estranged. And, you know, the surface level is like, don't hold crutches Life is short. Well, there's also some serious trauma that might, you know, not be addressed. And for your own mental health, you need to have certain boundaries in place. And so I'm very, you know, grateful you addressed that

Kerry Thomas 33:43
and there's no should and organizing or downside there. There is no, there is no should. You know, my one of my mentors Barbara Hemphill, she always says like it. It's not People shouldn't say, Well, what should I do? It's what will you do? And so maybe you won't go into that person's house yet. That's fine. Maybe you don't want to do it early. That's fine. There's, there's no should you know, I mean, I give these tips because I've seen them. In practice. I've seen the good the bad, you know what happens? So I am I do believe in the tips that I give, but I would never tell people. You have to do it this way. Or yeah, no, no, there's there's no shed. Yeah. And I struggled with that a little bit in my work, because I'm always telling people like, Okay, well organize your papers this way and did this right. But I also understand that that doesn't work for everyone. So yeah, grace, grace is a big word. Give it to yourself and to others always.

Samantha Spittle 34:43
Oh, it's so true. It's so true. Well, thank you for all of these tips. I mean, I feel like this is one of those topics that feels practical on one level. And then when you start digging a little deeper, it's like, oh, this is bringing up so many emotions. This is bringing up a lot of stuff. So being able to kind of have The practical tips and then, you know, acknowledging kind of some of that harder stuff too, I think is very helpful. So thank you. Good. Good. You're welcome. And how can people get in touch with you, Carrie.

Kerry Thomas 35:12
So my website is CTC organizing, which stands for conquer the chaos. So CTC organizing comm. I also have one of my favorite places to hang out, I have a Facebook group called less clutter, more peace, and you can find us there. But everything if you go to the website, everything's there, you can actually watch my TED talk there, which is about all the types of clutter, you can find the link to join the group, you can take a quiz on your productivity, there's a lot right there on the main page of my website. So that's a

Samantha Spittle 35:44
good place to start. Definitely and, and you can also find it on our website because I love your TED Talk. It's really empowering and helps you gain really good insights. So thank you so much for joining us and sharing your tips and I look forward to more Conversations.

Kerry Thomas 36:00
Thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai