Samantha Spittle 0:00
I would love for you to introduce yourself. And then we can start unpacking all this shame around body image.

Debbie Saroufim 0:06
Yes, let's unpack the shame. Let's swim in it. I'm gonna introduce myself now.

Samantha Spittle 0:12
That's always like the hardest question. So out of the way,

Debbie Saroufim 0:15
well, I don't know if this is good or bad, but I'm very good at talking about myself. So there you go. So I'm Debbie Serafin. I am about to be 42. I don't know that that's relevant. But I feel no shame around it. So I feel like sharing, I love it. And I'm a body relationship coach, I help women and make peace with their body, I help teach you how to love your body, even when you don't like it, I don't think you have to like it in order to love it. And so I help women make peace with their body. And oftentimes that kind of comes hand in hand with making peace with food, and making peace with exercise. I know so many women feel like, well, I just need to exercise more. That's not that that might not be the case, maybe you know, so there's a lot to unpack there. And so that's what I do. I'm body relationship coach, I help women make peace with all of that shit. And

Samantha Spittle 1:15
I love it. I love how you said, you help women love their body, even if they don't like it, because that's something that I've seen where it because I love following different people on social media. And that's something we've talked about, in some conversations, where it's like, you know, you can curate more of your feed to include much more diversity and to help. And one of the things I see is like, will do I felt confused, like, Why do I have to like this? You know, I must get to a place where I like it, then I'm going to be happy. So I really love that you said you don't have to like it. You don't

Debbie Saroufim 1:49
have to like it, I think so it's I mean, we live in here goes all of a sudden, I just start vomiting out stuff. Right? But we live in a diet culture world. And the thing about diet culture is it sounds really conflicting messages, right? So diet culture, tells you that, you know, that if you're, first of all, diet culture says that healthy is a specific size, which is absolute bullshit, you can be healthy at very different sizes. But it says it also says that self care looks a certain way. But but then it also says that you shouldn't stress about other things and don't like it, it kind of just keeps piling on these different. These different requirements that conflict each other. Yeah, and don't really work well together. And then on top of that, it tells you that taking care of your body properly means that you should like what you see. And what if you don't. And I you know, as I've worked with women for a while, I mean, for forever. Now, I think not liking what you see in the mirror is not size specific. That's it's just it, it affects my women who are, you know, under 100 pounds, and it affects my women that I work with who are like 500 pounds, every woman that I have met, feels like something is broken about her body, or she needs to apologize for something or that something could be better. And I think you know, the work that I do has made me realize, oh, feeling like that isn't a symptom, that there's something wrong with your body feeling like that is a symptom of the broken culture. So you don't have to like what you see in the mirror. That doesn't have to be anything that's wrong with you. That is the world around you. Yeah.

Samantha Spittle 3:36
Yeah, that's, that's like a great segue to before you tell us how we can start getting to that place. I'd like to hear Yeah. How did you get there? Because you have been, I think it's one of those things like you can speak on it and be an expert on it. When you walked it. Yeah, versus just kind of knowing it from reading about it. So I would love to hear more. Yeah,

Debbie Saroufim 3:59
I lived it. So um, so my story, I will give you this somewhat of abridged version. But this to me is a sad one, but it ends Okay. So I was raised by a mom, who is 71. And to this day, she still has an active eating disorder. So she raised both my sister and I. And while having an eating disorder, I was put on my very first diet at the age of six, which kind of blows my mind because my daughter is six and a half and doesn't really know what a diet is. And I don't think I really knew what a diet was at the age of six. But at the age of six, I was told that there were like certain certain bodies were good and certain bodies were bad, and this is what you should do to have a good body and if you don't have a good body, you should definitely be taking the steps to have a good body. And so I was put on a preventative diet so that I would not go through what my mom went through. And so the by the time I was in high school, I had a full fledged eating disorder. And ironically, my mom got me an excellent therapist and an excellent dietitian, which I, I don't, I don't know why the disconnect for herself, but that's okay. I got in with a really fantastic therapist and dietitian and, and so I worked very hard. And over years I overcame those eating disorder behaviors I, I was I started eating when I hadn't been eating and, you know, and all of that stuff, but I didn't start liking my body. And so everything was sort of weight weighted decision, pun intended, you know, it's like, should I eat this? Is it worth the shame? What if it? What if I don't like I have to go out tomorrow I have to wear this tomorrow didn't have it, just sort of trying to decide is each bite of food worth it. And I came out here I came out to Los Angeles to become an actress. So it just sort of puts you more in the world of the you know, feel like you are literally being broken down for looks. Ay, ay, ay, ay was an unsuccessful actress. But I did get a call from my manager one day, and she said, Are you sitting down? And I think that this is just a really good example of, of, of the unrealistic beauty standards, body standards, all of it. And I said, Okay, what's going on? And she said, Well, I'm having such a hard time with you, because you're pretty, but you're not really pretty enough to be the pretty girl. But like, I don't think you want to gain 100 pounds and be the best friend. And so I think you should get your nose done. And I have two more parts of this fucked up story. And the first part is that I did, I got my nose done. And the second part is that she was right, because I started going on auditions once I got my nose done, which is so fucked up. Because I really wasn't any different. And the truth is, is that I liked my face before. And I liked my face after I continue to hate my body. So I was an unsuccessful actress. And in my 20s I was I was starving, not literally, but wasn't making any money. And I was like, What the hell can I do? And one of my girlfriends said to me, she's like, well, you love exercising? Why don't you become a personal trainer, and then you can work around audition schedules. And now that I had my new nose, you know, I had regular auditions, so it was definitely necessary. And I became a personal trainer. And I thought this will be fantastic. People will pay me to stay thin and exercise. And I had a very different reaction, which is that I saw women of all different shapes and sizes, and makes and models and all the stuff all coming to me asking me to fix their body. And every time they did, I kept thinking like when are they going to notice that this part of me doesn't look right, or whatever. And that's when I sort of had that like, oh, oh, again, feeling like your body is broken, isn't a symptom of your body being broken, feeling like your body is broken, is a symptom of the broken world that we live in. And I'm

Samantha Spittle 7:56
gonna say that again, because that's too huge. Feeling like your body is broken is not a symptom of your body being

Debbie Saroufim 8:04
broken. It's a symptom of the very, very, very broken culture. And when we know that, Oh, me feeling like this isn't me feeling like my thighs are too big isn't because my thighs are too big. My feeling like my files are too big is because the world is broken, then do we have to actively take the steps to fix I know, this is podcast, so you probably can't hear I'm doing air quotes, air quotes. Do we have to take the steps to fix it? And will we ever be allowed to like our bodies and you know, we it's it's such an interesting thing as a woman. And I'm a I'm a feminist. I'm all I'm all the things and I recognize that I live in a world. Again, it's a broken world. I live in a world where for women, beauty and youth are currency. And so was thinness. Because there is a very specific way that women should again air quotes people you can't see the air quotes, but women should look and if you don't look that certain way, you are less powerful. And I talked about making a space for multiple truths. So my my first truth is that that's bullshit, right? Like, I am not more or less powerful because I had my nose done, I am not more or less powerful because I gain or lose 20 pounds. But then we talk about multiple truths. So my truth is that no, I am absolutely I am the same if anything, I am growing in power as I understand life and my role and what I'm supposed to do in this world more and more and the truth of the world, which is no more true than my truth right? They're conflicting truths is that I'm diminishing in value by the minute because I'm aging and I'm you know shriveling and and all the things that that we're told as women make you powerful. I'm leaving By the second because those things come with us. And so can we make a space for these conflicting truths? Because I don't think you change the reality of the situation by denying it, I think you have to sort of own it.

Samantha Spittle 10:13
That's good. So you can't change the reality of the situation by denying what you can't change the truth.

Debbie Saroufim 10:20
You can't change the reality of the situation by denying it. I think you have to make a you don't change the truth by denying it, you change the truth by realizing that the truth is just a truth. It's not the truth. The truth. Yeah. And so I talk a lot about isn't my truth versus the truth. And when we talk about these feelings around a woman's body and the way women feel around their body, you know, they can say, well, I feel I feel gross, I feel I feel unattractive, I feel like I'm aging, I feel all these things. But feeling that way can be your truth. But the truth is, for example, my truth, my truth is that I'm aging, and so therefore I'm diminishing, except for the truth is that I'm just aging I'm not actually diminishing, right? And so can I make a space for both things to be true? Because where I think we lose the battle is trying to convert the opposing truth. And you can't convert it. Because again, the reality is that currently we live in a world where this is the truth, right? So trying to convert it is just sort of like banging your head against a wall. Let's make a space for it to be just one of many truths, right? Like,

Samantha Spittle 11:35
how do we make that space? Like, because I Okay, so let's use the aging thing, for example, like our world is telling us, you know, that being young or that if you can't stay young, then you have to stay looking girl. Mm hmm. And therefore, if you do not, then you are not as valuable, you know, it's that whole currency idea,

Debbie Saroufim 11:55
but it also criticizes women for doing things to remain young looking. Mm hmm. Right. So like, um, you know, it, it, it praises our culture praises a woman for Aging Gracefully, except it also really criticizes a woman for like, let's say going gray, right? Except for it also really shames the woman who's gotten filler in her face to get rid of the wrinkles. And so again, if we look, we'll Oh, there's no way.

Samantha Spittle 12:28
We're not gonna win, we're not gonna win. What if we

Debbie Saroufim 12:31
know that we aren't going to win? Do we have to play race? Or can we just decide, you know, I don't care if I have gray hair, it doesn't bother me. My truth is that the gray hair doesn't bother me. My Truth is also that these lines around my mouth do bother me. And so I can get filler if I want to, or I can dye my hair. Because my truth is, is the truth that matters to me. I don't have to change your truth, to have my truth continue to exist. So we make a space for conflicting truths that don't need to negate each other, but you know, can live side by side simultaneously. And then you are so much more freedom.

Samantha Spittle 13:18
Yes, you just live out your truth. It's so funny. I was listening, thinking how, you know, when we, I mean, I think a lot like me. And I think a lot of women that want to be game changers, you know, change, you know, passionate about stuff, which I think pretty much includes every woman I know, you know, when you have that thing you're passionate about. It's so funny, because it's like, we can try to change the world. I mean, there's some quote, I'm sure but it's like, you can't you have to start with yourself. You know, it's like when you start living your truth because I have learned and kind of with the whole day I did like the body image and all the different bodies and it's like, it doesn't matter what a woman looks like, if she's just embracing herself, whatever that is like that is inspiring. And when someone lives their truth that inspires you to live your truth whether that's a body image issue and identity. I mean, there's so many things that that could be so it's so fun. So it's funny because I liked when you and I when you and I talked pre and we talked about holding those two truths I liked it but I was like, good how does that work? Because work because like well know something? There has to be right answer like that's where I come from that and I'm

Debbie Saroufim 14:27
like, you're not alone. And I think like the hard part is in recognizing that there has to again there has to be a right answer is your truth. Not the truth, right? Um,

Samantha Spittle 14:42
that's like the body image that's changing from saying, Okay, I know that a body image I know that like insert pretend smaller size, a smaller body size. That is the ideal, not just what society but that's the right answer. I should have this size body so I need to learn to hack it and just have this like really positive self view of my body at this size. Even though I know that the right size is over there. It's like, there's no effing right size.

Debbie Saroufim 15:13
There's no effing right size, you're totally right. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna slam something on top of that, right? Do it, do it, I love it, when you see the pictures of the women, because there are so many incredible body positive stuff, so much so much content you can see now, and you're going to see a woman, and she's going to be wearing significantly less clothing than you. And she's going to be smiling, and you're going to start going, well, she's smiling, and you're going to start comparing, well, her hips are bigger than mine, or my stomach may be flatter, but my boat my boobs, you're going to start comparing Andrew does it? Well, she feels fine about herself. She's she's in underwear, why can't I be in underwear? What's wrong with me. And I would again, say, that is an assumed truth, that is your truth that you're bringing to the table that she's okay. In those underwear photos, because I have had lots of those. Lots of us body positive women come to me post underwear pictures and be like, Oh my god, I hated this. And so we remember that when we make a space for multiple truths to be true, we are releasing our grip on our tight hold of what the narrative is. And we make a space for the fact that there could be other narratives. So I am not saying that the body positive women in those pictures are hating their body. I'm not saying that. But we don't actually know, right. And so the imagery and what it's what it's meant to make you feel, it's meant to make you feel that way because it knows that you carry these narratives with you. But when you recognize, although my narrative is actually just mine, it's not truth with a capital T, then all of a sudden, you are so much more immune to the negativity that's in some of that, right? Like, then I'm able to look at the women in the body positive pictures. And not only do I not have to compare my leg size to theirs, but I also don't have to compare their confidence to mine, because it's all fluid, right? So like, they might be more confident than me this second, but in 10 seconds, I might be more competent than them. And who's to say what more confidence is, and confidence to me might be a different than, like, my truth of confidence might be different than their truth of confidence. And so like, you just start to see, it just sort of comes unraveled. And, yeah,

Samantha Spittle 17:31
we eat well, it's funny, because, like with the truth, we each have our own truth, it's so similar to we each have our own shame triggers our own shame stories, you know, whether with this whole topic, you know, without we're talking about around body image and appearance, what I'm keep, what I keep being reminded of is it is so individual and like that's why we have to unpack our own stuff. Because there's not an exact route, like there's not an exact this is how you have a positive body image or appearance. This is how you work your shame out. And it's not like this is all like my stuff coming out where it's like, oh, I am working through always wanting the right answer. Or always, you know, thinking there's a right way. And just and that it's one and done, you figure it out. And then we're over this, and I, you know, my own story of like, you know, gaining and losing weight over time, and kind of it's like, and I've twice I've done it and it's like, Oh, I thought I had it figured out and I thought I did it the right way with like a positive attitude and debt to death.

Debbie Saroufim 18:32
Well, I always say there's no, I'll use food as an example. There's no good foods and no bad foods, there are only good and bad relationships with food, right? But there are no good foods and bad foods. But there's also no good body and no bad body. But if we're using these polarizing words of good and bad, the same goes for positive if you're searching for a positive body image, then the problem with positive is that the only place it leaves you if you're not positive is its polar opposite which is negative. So part of the reason I use food as an example because you know I have some people who it's so interesting when you start to have people break apart what they believe good foods are and bad foods are and everybody has so many different roles. So I have some people, some women that I've worked with her like fruits bad because it's carbs, but then other people are like no fruits exactly what you should be eating. And we start to, again, my truth versus the truth, right? So like my truth could be the carbs are bad, but the truth is that carbs are totally fine. But when we bring it into terms of when when we realize that, that our idea of Oh, again, it's not it's not black and white as much as we want it to be like a quick one and done it's it's just not that simple, right? It's not as simple as no there are no good foods or no backseats there can also be in a world where there are no good foods and no bad foods. There can also be foods that are good for me and foods that are bad for me like I'm severely allergic to salmon. So whilst Salmon in itself is not a bad food. My Truth is I do not get close to salmon because I will break out in hives and my tongue will swell. And so salmon is a bad food for me except salmon goes into the good food list for so many people because it's like, you know, it's omega threes and all that sort of so you realize that you can have conflicting truths, right, salmon can be a perfectly wonderful food and a very, very deadly food for Debbie. And one does not negate the other. And so then I come back to a word like positive, it only leaves negative, right. And so then we have to remember, well, my perception and my experience of a positive is can be different than this other persons experience a positive. To me, having a positive relationship with myself is one where I'm allowed to have all the feelings, all the frustration, and know that those feelings don't define my body in that moment. But if positive, if your definition of positive is like what feels good all the time, then you're limited to if I'm not feeling good, then I'm negative, which is bad, which means I'm doing something wrong, which means I better figure out how to get good, because there's only it's, it's you set yourself up to lose, and then you lose more than you win. Because I was so good. Only, you know, so many directions to go. Well, thank you.

Samantha Spittle 21:19
I think everyone needs to like rewind that and like, listen to that one more time, because that's how good it was. I love that idea of the opposite of positive with the lead be negative because my question, my next question that I was going to ask is, that's why I said, rewind and re listen to that. Because the next question is, you know, so there's, there's this finish line, right? Like, women, you know, we live in this diet culture where that it wants women to strive to reach this perfect body, this perfect appearance. We've already given the spoiler alert that there are no winners because you never will arrive at that finish line. And then you took us to this place, which I love, which is if we only think of like, okay, now. So now it's like, okay, we're not going to strive towards a positive, we're not going to strive towards a certain body, we're not going to strive to a certain appearance, but what we are going to strive for is a positive, healthy mindset towards our body. And then you just blew that out of the water, which I love. Thank you.

Debbie Saroufim 22:23
So like, so when are we not trying to feel good about ourselves? Like what's

Samantha Spittle 22:27
so with body relationship? Okay, this might be a very simple question, but also very complicated, like, well, then wait, how do we have a healthy relationship with our body? today? Yeah, making the change to say, I know, I'll be happier if I lose 50 pounds, or I'll know we'll be happier if I tone up this little spot. And I know,

Debbie Saroufim 22:46
I mean, that's the million dollar question, although I don't have an answer. So yes. That's why. Well, I think that having a relationship with your body is like having any other relationship. And I always compare it to your relationship with my husband, who I think is excellent. He's far better than my first husband ever was for me. I'm sure my my first husband has since found happiness with his current wife. But so I prefer it.

Samantha Spittle 23:13
You're happy because you're probably I wish

Debbie Saroufim 23:15
you nothing but the best. Better sex than we ever had? Oh, there you go. Nothing. That's the best. No, I think that I compare it a lot to my husband. And my husband hates when I use this because he's like, You made me sound. So I make you sound good. You just just, I think my husband is incredible. I think he's very attractive. He's an incredible, eloquent writer. He's brilliant. He's a hands on dad. He even cooks sometimes. My husband is shitty at waking up in the morning, we have two kids that makes it feel like we have a third like I have. It's like, it's like having another child. It's like, I can't believe that the kids are up and I'm trying to help the kids are trying to help me get Daddy out of bed. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. And I think we have a really good relationship. I spent a very, very, very long part of our lives together, trying to turn him into a morning person. And first of all, I failed because he's not. And second of all, we spent a lot of time kind of fighting because even when it wasn't even when it wasn't the morning, it was like, Well, you know, if you were a morning person, you could have done this already or something. So there it was just sort of spill over. And when I am this, this was not his problem. I knew he wasn't a morning person. I wanted him to be a morning person. And so when I gave myself the space to grieve, that he will never be the morning person that I want him to be. Then I didn't have to fix him. I just got to make a space for it. And I have to say I still I mean let's be realistic. I still wish you're a morning person. But we don't fight we I mean we fight about other stuff but we don't fight about we don't fight about that mind. mornings are not nearly as miserable because I no longer kind of trying to convince him that he should be a part of it right. So like now, the mornings, they're a little frantic and a little a little hectic, because because I've got a four and a half year old and a six and a half year old. But, but But I kind of know what this is, this is what I signed up for. It's not my job, it's just like I don't, I don't need to convert him to be part of this equation, I can be part of it. And so we fight less mornings are far more enjoyable. And I still think we have a good relationship. And I'm still sad that he's not a morning person. And I kind of want you to be able to feel the same way about your body. So we live in a world that says smaller is better, unless you're too small and who's to draw the line, right? So can you be sad, for example, I was I was smaller pre kids. I was definitely smaller pre kids. And I've always been now that I now that I have sort of this distance from it, I realize I've always been in a thin, privileged body. Even when I thought I was fat. I was always in a thin privileged body, but and I still am in a thin privileged body. And I was much thinner before I had two kids. And I'm allowed to be sad that I'm not thinner anymore. Without thinner actually being a good thing. Again, it's like a culturally good thing, right. And I'm also allowed to miss it, it doesn't have to be something that I miss, because it can just be like, I'm gonna miss every I look back at pictures for my kids, again, four and a half and six and a half. And they've changed so much in the past few years. And those, those earlier versions of them are gone. And I missed them. And I wouldn't undo this for this for anything. Yeah. And so are you allowed, just have sadness that your body changes? It's sad. And it's also great, because the alternative is death. So it's not a bad thing. But like, Are we allowed to be sad about it? And I think our culture is like no joke yourself about fix it. But the truth that you can't fix it? Oh, maybe we should just be sad about it. And then if if we open ourselves up to the sadness, what other feelings do we open ourselves up to in the process that we've been shutting down? Because sadness was too scary? So you shut down a whole bunch of feelings?

Samantha Spittle 27:22
Yes, I'm so glad you you brought up that analogy again. Why say again, brought up the analogy of the relationship with our body as a relationship, because in one of the other conversations around this topic, another guest Elena talked about being in a toxic relationship with our body, you know, when we have that constantly fight on hating our body, and kind of we talked about being gentle with it until I love kind of bringing it back around to that analogy, which by the way, when you were talking about your husband, my thought was in 10 years, when you are ready for bed, and your kids are staying up late, or when they get older, and they're coming in late, and you're just going to be sleeping like a baby, and he'll be up and you'll be like, I'm so glad he is like probably more of the night owl because he can stay up and then I'll wake up and get up in the morning. And

Debbie Saroufim 28:10
it's another reason that identifying him as not being a morning person would be bad, right? Because it isn't bad. It's just not my truth. It's just not ugly, you know. So and again, if if something is good, then the opposite of it is bad. Whereas the truth of the situation is, it is neither it is just up in the morning. I'm not good for b I'm a I'm a morning person, that does not make me good. As much as my ego will tell me that it does. And as much as my truth, right? Again, if we're talking about my truth versus the truth, my truth is that I'm good, because I'm a morning person, and I have more stuff done by 10am than most people get done in there. But that's also just my truth, right? The truth is that whatever time of day, is the best time of day for you is totally fine, right? I also know other people who are nighttime people who their truth is, I'm great because between the hours of 10pm and 1am I just make magic happen there again, that's that's their truth. My truth of me being a morning person makes me good does not actually negate their truth. But we have to we have to be careful where we pigeonhole ourselves with these good and bad labels. Because if we hold on too tightly to that label, then we end up on the flip side of it at some point. And so but then if you talk about here's where it gets really exciting, and I'm I'm getting aroused. And is that when you talk about they're talking about like we were talking about how do you sort of borrow from the toxicity of culture? And, and again, diet culture is what says sin is good fat is bad, diet culture, and this, this anti woman culture is the culture that says young women good old woman. Not so much, buddy. But if that is the same culture, right, that allows me to feel good for some of the things that I do. And then I make the space for it. Well, I feel good for them because it's my truth, but it's not the truth. But when I accept it as my truth, if I can identify this is, this is actually diet culture. Like this is me borrowing from diet culture, for example, if I want to be good, because I wake up in the morning, and that would be to me that's a very diet culture II thought, right? Because it's good versus bad. But what if, what if subscribing to the fact that I'm good for waking up early in the morning makes waking up more enjoyable for me? Like, does it make it easier do MLS begrudging? When I get out of bed? Does the morning start off a little bit brighter? And if so? Am I allowed to sort of dip my toe into the toxicity of this polarizing messaging, knowing that it's not actual truth is just my truth. So that when the flip side comes to bite me in the ass, because it will, I can release it as truth and know that it was never true to begin with? Did you follow that?

Samantha Spittle 31:19
I did, but I need you to repeat it. Because, okay, let me let me process it real quick. Okay, so I love the this whole good bad thing is I'm so glad we're addressing this because I think this is such a huge part of the whole body image thing. Because if if we are in a bad place, you know, we have shame around our body image and appearance. The flip side of that is we want to get over to the good side. And, and it's like it's it's a it's a losing battle. Because

Debbie Saroufim 31:51
it's a losing battle. It's a total losing battle. However, you know, with so many like, I'll put it in terms of so many of us feel like we've been good if we exercise, right? I'll use that, because that's a really good example. It's probably a more common example, I would say than the morning thing. And I helped a lot of my women really explore their relationship to exercise. It's amazing how much we tie our value as people to did I work out today, when you truth of the situation is that you are a value whether you exercised or not. Right, but, but I have all of these incredibly valuable women who feel invaluable because they didn't get to the gym that day. And however, and that's bullshit, right? However, I'm also okay with them feeling extra valuable, because they went to the gym. So long as they know, because they're because there's enough time when this like, where you if, again, if you know you can't, when there's enough time when you're going to get sucked into the negativity that you can ride the high, knowing that it's not real. It's just your truth, right? So if you if your truth is, I'm such a badass, because I went to the gym, and then I have a salad for lunch reveal. The truth is cool. I didn't go to the gym, and I had a burger and you're actually no better than me. We're just different. That's true. Except I also want you to be able to revel in feeling really, really, really good that you did those things that feel good to you, right? Now, the problem with that is that tomorrow, if you were really good today, but because you went to the gym and had a salad for lunch, but tomorrow, you you end up being like me, and you don't go to the gym and you have a burger for lunch, are you bad. But then again, if we recognize the difference between my truth versus the truth, the bad doesn't have to pull us down. Whereas the truth can just sort of be a feeling we're allowing ourselves to feel. Because again, the truth of the situation is you have the same value whether you make it to the gym and eat a salad or a burger, right? And then what if somebody, well, I'll throw the allergy card in? And like what if somebody is allergic to, you know, something that's in that salad, then who's to say that the salad is really the better food? Because again, yeah, it's black. That's black and white terminology. And there's just, it's black and white terminology of gray material.

Samantha Spittle 34:25
I really like so it's it comes back to that idea that I mentioned earlier about like, we each have our own individual, as you've said, our individual truth. One of the things we talked about on another conversation, it's like listening to your body. So in one conversation with Elena, we talked about kind of like listening to what your body needs. And so what I love about the juxtaposition of these two conversations is it's like listening to our internal voice like our the truth that our body is giving us our truth of our body and how to combat that with this outside world. That is so little Loud and two. And I feel like this is helping us find that space where we can listen to our body, find our truth, but recognize that we're still living in this world of volts diet culture and all this stuff. And, you know, it's that we're not going to win. So it really has to come down to like, why are we doing it? How does it make us feel, and constantly reminding ourselves that there's not this good or bad? Like,

Debbie Saroufim 35:25
and, and that what might be good for you one day doesn't have to be good for you the next day, right? Because not it's not black and white terms. So, um, you know, to your point, if you're, if you're feeling feeling good about yourself is fantastic. feeling bad about yourself, doesn't feel good. But the truth is that nothing's actually changed in between. So if you're trying to listen to your body, and again, back to the food, because people have such polarizing views of food. So if you're, if, if you're, if what is good for you today, is to subscribe to the Diet culture myth that you are a good person for having a salad. Who am I to tell you that today's not the day to buy into that now, tomorrow might be a great day for you to get really angry at diet culture. But like sometimes we need a win rate. Like when when we're set up to fail. Sometimes we just need like an easy win to remind us that we're okay. And so if your easy win is having a salad at lunch, because it's what tells you you're good even when you know the truth is, is that you're good either way, but you just needed a win, then who am I to tell you not to do that? Right? But don't you want to have the power to do that, as opposed to just getting a salad because you feel like you're supposed to but you don't really know. And it's not actually giving you the benefits, although you think you're getting vitamins because salads are full of vitamins, but doesn't even count if you put ranch dressing on it. But of course it counts. Because one thing doesn't negate the other except for does it matter? And like there's just again, there's just suddenly gets to be room for all of it.

Samantha Spittle 37:04
Yes, oh, man, this whole room for all of it. I just, I want to just cut it out. I just want to like, cut the bad parts out and just live our life without that. It's funny. Like, I had my therapist pregnant yesterday. And when you were talking, I was like, Oh my gosh, this whole idea of you know, I've talked about this on other conversations, like we keep getting the same messages. And for me, it's like, I just want no discomfort. I just want to fix all the thing. Yeah, you know, let me figure out and so that if things come up that trigger or activate, you know, whatever. To me, I have to remind myself that that doesn't mean there's something wrong. Like that is just life. And so listening to the body stuff, it's like, oh, you know, we want you know this whole? And like you we talked about, like the with body, the body positive movement? Yes. There's a lot of good to that. But that's a myth in and of itself, too. Because you think, Oh, the women who are doing all this must feel great all the time. You know?

Debbie Saroufim 38:07
Exactly. Shouldn't that's there's very bit of a difference. It's not that they shouldn't feel great all the time. Because we should all feel great all the time, except for nobody does. And that's no one across the board. Like it's no one across the board. Yeah, no, I mean, I think

Samantha Spittle 38:21
and if you think you need to, you're gonna like so for me. So I have to think like, man, what is my, my image? It's almost like maybe it's not as bad as it seems. Because if I'm taking the clues that if I have negativity about my body, I must have a very negative body image. It's realizing like, Oh, I'm human, maybe this

Debbie Saroufim 38:45
is a normal body image. Like if we define what is negative. Also, to your point of I don't want to sit in discomfort. I don't know anybody who does. And then if we talk about in a world where as for women, you know, beauty and youth and fitness is currency. I think if we want to talk about what actual power is, if we talk about what the truth is, versus my truth is I'm powerful, because I'm beautiful. I'm not powerful, because I'm not beautiful or whatever. Or I'm powerful, because I'm thinner. I'm not powerful, because I'm thinner. I'm not as powerful as I want to be if I were a little bit thinner, but I'm more powerful than I could. All of those things, all the real power is the ability to sit in the discomfort.

Samantha Spittle 39:30
Gosh, that was just what my post was today. I know this earlier in January, but so if you're listening, you couldn't go back and look at the post from December 14 on the 14th

because I said growth is about getting comfortable being uncomfortable, because that's my message that I keep getting over and over and over again. That's where the power

Debbie Saroufim 39:52
is though. And I think like that's how I make the I make the the ability I make the face for the the multiple truths, the conflicting truths that I am diminishing in power as I am a woman who is over 40. And I am gaining power, as I have never been more comfortable in sitting in my discomfort and I and I expect that that will just get better over time. So I'm currently like, you know, shooting in a downward direction and then also shooting in an upward direction. They are conflicting truths, I have never been this powerful because I have never before in my life been this comfortable sitting in the discomfort, and I am also diminishing in power by the second. And so those conflicting truths have a space to be true. And so then we don't have to diminish in value as women except for we are diminishing the value, but it doesn't matter because we don't diminish in value except for we do. And then

Samantha Spittle 40:48
it's a cycle of like, all this.

Debbie Saroufim 40:51
When you make a space for when you allow for the negativity, then that's when you allow for the feeling the discomfort, the negative feeling, not like the positive versus negative or good versus Yeah, but when you make a space, to not have to when, when good or bad, or positive or negative doesn't have to be in black and white terms, when it's just a feeling that you open up to where the real power is because you can sit in those feelings and know that you can feel bad and be okay, that too, that those two truths can coexist. But you can feel bad and be perfectly fine. But feel bad.

Samantha Spittle 41:31
Yes. That is such a perfect like, wrap. I mean, we could talk forever, but like such a nice little wrapping it up because because that's the thing, we're not going to win. We've already said that you know, and going around the cycle of like, we're improving here but we're devaluing hear empowering hear it's, we our brains want to find balance. We as humans want nice, wrapped up things. But the truth is, it's just not going to happen. Because there's always going to be conflict. So continually, and it's so funny, because that theme that might be the theme of this coming season is like getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Yes, I'm realizing for myself, that's like always I'm always striving towards comfort, you know, how can I eliminate? Like it's normal?

Debbie Saroufim 42:15
I think that that's exactly I think that that is the normal, the normal human reaction. And I have found that as I am exploring women's relationships to their bodies, a lot of other relationships come into question, spiritual relationships, like romantic relationships, all these things, because again, when we make a space for all the feelings, we are allowed to feel some of the negative things that we always push aside. So I have also said as, as I have explored some romantic relationships and spiritual relationships, some work relationships, all those things with women. Again, I'm not looking for a solution. I don't think if you have a good spiritual relationship that looks this way, or you believe this, it's, you're comfortable with the fact that sometimes you're going to be uncomfortable.

Samantha Spittle 43:06
Yes, it's such I love addressing this outside world because so much of this body image and appearance is such an internal job. And if but as you said earlier, we can't ignore the reality of the world and so addressing that, helping to start navigating this and so how can people follow you connect with you work with you so that they can keep working on this relationship with their body? Yeah,

Debbie Saroufim 43:33
well, you can you can I'm I'm Debbie like The Little Debbie snack cakes last name, Serafin. I'm going to spell it out because everybody gets it wrong. SS and Sam, A R O U F as in Frank, I M as in Mary. But that's that's me. If you Google me, you'll find me. But um, you can check out body relationship.com. That's my website. It'll take you through all the different things I do. I do one on one coaching. So if you're kind of looking to explore, if you're looking to further explore some of the things that we were talking about today, but not just to like explore them, but to figure out how do I get from feeling like my truth is the truth to actually knowing that my truth is just my truth. I coach you through that one on one. I also have a membership community where I do group coaching sessions, and you work together with other women who are feeling the same way you are, and and the membership community has a takes you through my curriculum, and you get access to the group coaching sessions, as well as we do exercise classes where we explore our relationship to exercise, which is actually really different than just exercising even though you still exercise. It's fun, and there's a great community of women and so yes, that's how you find the body relationship.com And you can check me out there and I'm always open to talking so

Samantha Spittle 44:57
yay, thank you so much. Well, let's Let us get comfortable being uncomfortable and holding space for multiple truths

Debbie Saroufim 45:05
yes yes yes