Samantha Spittle 0:00
Today is, it's hard to use the word exciting and to be excited when we're talking about such a heavy topic. But the reason I say excited and exciting is because this is something we've dealt with and have walked through and to have someone that has is walking and is passionate about it is extremely liberating. And it's kind of a full circle moment of oh, my gosh, it really does, you know, to be able to talk about the things that people don't talk about is extremely comforting. So, thank you.

Phil Goldstein 0:34
Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. And to be completely honest, I mean, I think that one of the reasons why I wrote my book is to provide support and insight, and hopefully, some healing. If I can do that, for one person, you know, awesome, fantastic job accomplished, if I can do that for more than one person even better. And so I really hope that it has provided some measure of comfort and hopefully will, in the future. That's really a core reason why I wrote the book and why I'm so passionate about talking about it, and about this topic.

Samantha Spittle 1:29
Yeah. So today, you know, this whole idea of trauma, childhood sexual abuse, there's just so many facets, so many layers to it. And so why don't you start out by telling us a little bit, you know, kind of, maybe more specifically your book, because it's a book of poetry.

Phil Goldstein 1:47
Sure. So my book is called How to bury a boy at sea. And it is going to be available, officially April 5 from stillhouse Press, but it is on sale. Now, as we're recording in mid March, it's available for preorder, but it's official release date is April 5. And like you said, it's a book of poetry. It's my debut poetry collection. And I wrote the first kind of batch of poems that, you know, became the foundation for the book in 2018, when I was just starting therapy to deal with the abuse that I had experienced when I was boy. And, you know, I've subsequently added a lot, edited a lot. And now that the book is coming out, and I would say that it's most obviously, for people who are survivors of child sexual abuse, and especially men. But honestly, the target audience that I have in mind is much broader than that, because all of those people are connected to lots of other people. They have partners who are very integral and connected elements of the healing and recovery journey that happens when you you start to unpack the trauma of CSA. It's a book that, hopefully will appeal to therapists and counselors and people who, you know, professionally work to help those who are recovering from child sexual abuse, you know, the more people and you know, young and adolescent men, especially who I can reach with a book earlier on, I think, you know, the better off the world will be because, as you know, you know, oftentimes survivors of child sexual abuse, wait a really long time to disclose that they've been abused if they ever disclose. You know, I say this really often when I'm talking about this, and I'll repeat it here, but I was just so astounded to learn, you know, a few years ago that the average age of disclosure of child sexual abuse, at least according to child USA, is 52 years old. So 52 On average, which means that there are plenty of people who, you know, wait until they're in their 60s or 70s or 80s, to talk about it. And unfortunately, lots of people go to their grave having never told anyone about being abused. And so, yeah, I hope that the book is a tool that can be used to help break the silence. I hope that people obviously appreciate the The aesthetics of the poems themselves. But, you know, I do have this larger, hopeful goal for it.

Samantha Spittle 5:09
Definitely. And I mean, I remember when you and I had our first conversation offline, and you shared with me that the average age of disclosing that information is 52. And it in the same, it blew me away. And at the same time, didn't surprise me in the sense that there's just so much that we don't talk about and stigma and whatnot. And so I know that a big part of the book is kind of this, wanting to normalize the conversation, bring it into conversations, you know, because this is not something that's talked about. Most abusers, this is not a statistic, I'd have to Google it real quick. But I just know, you know, that, you know, any type of sexual abuse is most it's usually someone people know. And I think that makes it so hard to talk about to report. And so there's just so many different layers. So with what you're doing, and wanting to, as I said, normalize the conversation, I guess, what are some of the things you want to, to, for people to know or to bring, bring into the world, you know, bring out of the dark, you know, for me, I talk a lot about living our life in the light and bringing things shining a light onto those dark places.

Phil Goldstein 6:22
I mean, there's, there's lots of things, you know, I think that the first thing I would say is that it is totally normal and completely understandable for people who have been sexually abused as children to not talk about it for a really long time, to not tell their parents or relatives or, you know, adults who are authority figures in their lives at the time of the abuse, especially if the person who's abusing them is another family member, or somebody close to the family, whether, you know, that's a clergy person, or a close family friend, the young mind is not made to be or capable of comprehending and being able to articulate that kind of trauma. You know, you often dissociate when you're being abused like that, and your mind kind of shuts down as a survival mechanism. And so, you know, even if you have a vague recollection and understanding of what happened, you might not be, you know, fully aware yourself of what's been done to you. And so that's one layer of it. And then there's just the sense of dislocation and shame, and fear. And there are all kinds of factors that, that play into that, you know, and vary from person to person and situation is situation. But you add all that up, and you get a child who's been traumatized, who doesn't have the emotional wherewithal or vocabulary to articulate what's happened to them, who is very fearful of disclosing fearful that they're going to be harmed, potentially by the person who's abused them fearful that they're going to be blamed or shamed for what's happened to them. And, you know, I think that those are really powerful, inhibiting factors, no matter who's been abused. And then for men in particular, I do think that because of the way that our societies certainly in the United States, and in lots of, you know, lots of countries Honestly, all over the world, it's not really to be an east or west thing. There's this pervasive idea of what masculinity means. And it's all centered around this idea of being strong and fighting and being aggressive and not taking shit from anybody and not finding anything bad happened to you or the people around you. And so, you know, if you are a boy who's been sexually abused, your experience runs completely counter to that, because someone did harm you did take advantage of you, and you were not in a position to consent to what was being done. You and you are not in a position to really fight back. And so, you know, as you grow up in a society where there's this idea of what it means to be a real man that's, you know, coming at you from your family from culture, you know, from your friends from movies and TV from books, why would you want to, you know, sort of mark yourself as other, especially if you're somebody who was pre pubescent or going through puberty while you've been abused, it's a really vulnerable time. In general, regardless of whether or not you've been abused. And so layering that on is just another added difficulty. And so I think that that stigma is unfortunately, still really pervasive. And it inhibits a lot of people from coming forward. And men in particular,

Samantha Spittle 11:05
yeah. And you bring up a really good point about, you know, the masculinity or the perception and whatnot. And as you were talking, it made me think of a couple things, which is one, you know, the there's the numbers, you know, of how many, statistically, but we're, you know, and I'm not sure if it's one in six or whatnot, because you heard yours was, I think, one in 10, or 12, when we were talking and we had read somewhere, one in six, but either way, it's under reported. I mean, I'm confident I'm not a scientist, but I'm very confident that it's underreported. And I'm wondering, and so I just would love to get your take on this. From the, you know, stories I have heard and, you know, witnessed and, you know, just have been able to, to know, I think that what makes childhood sexual abuse so complicated is that it doesn't look like for example, like rape in a movie, you know, it's not, it's, there's so much manipulation and predatory behavior, you know, so if you, I'd love to have some of your thoughts on that, you know, kind of how that plays into all of it for people. Because I guess the point is, it's like, I think, how many people don't know that they were victims of sexual abuse is kind of, I guess what I'm processing through in my head right now. Sure, I

Phil Goldstein 12:28
mean, loss. You know, I don't have an exact statistic to pull up to mind, either. But, you know, I do completely agree that whether it's one in six or one in 13, boys, you know, I think that's in under reporting. I think that, because sexual abuse can take so many different forms. And there's so many different gradations. It's hard to, you know, until some time has passed, often to look back and realize, Wow, that was abuse. And, you know, I think it's important to note that child sexual abuse, again, it covers a really wide range of contact and activities. It's not just, you know, rape or fondling or, you know, forced oral sex or forced masturbation, it could be things like, showing a child pornography, that, you know, they are way too young to be exposed to and can't really consent to be seeing, you know, in addition to being molested by my older brother, you know, that's something that happened to me when I was like, nine or 10, you know, or 11. And I think that it's it's really important to get away from these kind of black and white notions of this is what abuse looks like, or, well, if it wasn't rape, how bad could it have been? You know, and these really kind of harmful stereotypes misperceptions. I'm not sure what the right word is for understanding not only what child sexual abuse is, but what trauma is and how trauma affects a child. You know, I think it's really important to note that, you know, yes, there are often visible signs of trauma responses in children, you know, things like being withdrawn, not doing well in school lashing out doing drugs and, you know, obviously, those self destructive behaviors can continue into adolescence and adulthood, but there are plenty of other trauma responses that look nothing like that, it could be a feeling like for me, like you have to be perfect. Like, you have to pretend like nothing is wrong. Because you're worried about slipping up, and then people finding out or feeling like, you need to be a people pleaser. And please everybody, because you're worried, like you were with your abuser, that if you don't please them and do what they want you to do, something bad is going to happen to you. These trauma responses get wired into your nervous system in your brain, when you are, you know, a young person who's who's been abused or been through trauma, and it then ripples out into your life. You know, I'm not a medical doctor, or a therapist or an expert in C PTSD. But I have been through a lot of therapy, and I know enough to know that that there are such a wide range of responses to trauma. And unfortunately, not all of them are going to be visible, or sort of fit into the kind of obvious rubric of Oh, yeah, this is somebody who, you know, has been through trauma, I can tell because you know, they are withdrawn or engaged in X, Y, or Z, self destructive behaviors,

Samantha Spittle 16:27
I think there's so many responses to trauma, as you said, you know, it could be over compensating or under, you know, it's like, there's no exact, exact path that you could could label that. So you talk about, you know, with effects of trauma. And so with your story, you talk a lot in the book, you know, about your experience, and then also the support of your wife and how she helped walk through that. So what would you say, you know, for people listening, I think that, you know, that, as you said, your book, your story is for people. And the reason I also want to share it, it's for, you know, for survivors to help with their healing. It's for those who love them to support them. And statistically, no matter what it is, I guarantee everyone listening knows someone who was affected by childhood sexual abuse, unfortunately, and so that being said, what are ways that your wife supported you so that if someone listening, you know, walked through this and like said, chances are you might not know that this is part of your partner story, because it's so tragic and underreported?

Phil Goldstein 17:36
I mean, she has supported me in so many ways, every way. You know, she is honestly, the one who first really pushed me to seek therapy, not knowing that I had been abused, you know, we were having a lot of issues in our relationship related to sex and intimacy. And she was like, Look, you need to talk to somebody and figure this out. Otherwise, you know, I don't know what's going to happen to us as a couple. And I was really scared of losing her and motivated to try and figure it out. And, you know, that's honestly, when I first started coming to terms and, you know, filling out on our form for a therapist that I had been abused, and eventually started talking about it. You know, she was incredibly supportive, in the immediate aftermath of me telling her about it, just, you know, reading books and reading articles and trying to find out everything that she could about incest and trauma and child sexual abuse, and what she could do as a partner to help. You know, she has been incredibly patient, unbelievably so and I will be forever grateful for that patient in terms of me working through things in terms of things related to our sex life going up and down. You know, I, I would not be here. I don't think that the book would be here without her. She really encouraged me to think about collecting poems into something that could be a book. You know, she has been my staunchest defender and my, my partner, my ally, I can't really put into words how supportive and tremendous she's been. And, you know, it's somebody asked me recently when I was talking about this You know, did it get worse? before it got better after you disclose the abuse to her? And the answer is yes. You know, things unfortunately got a lot worse, because the messy process of dealing with the abuse and the aftermath and my family's response to me disposing it to them, was really kind of all consuming for quite a while, I would say, a year and a half to two years after I first told her and so, you know, I don't want to sugarcoat it for anybody who is listening to this, who's going through this or may someday go through this, like, it's, it's really shitty,

Samantha Spittle 20:50
it's gonna say, it's really hard, really hard.

Phil Goldstein 20:53
It's really hard. I completely agree with that. It's really hard for everybody. And I just want to say, it's really hard for everybody in the sense that it's hard for the person who's been abused, it's hard for their partner, it's hard for their family, who likely had no knowledge of the abuse, when it was going on, and not until it was disclosed to them. So it's hard for everybody, I think that it's, it's about what you do, and how you respond after you break the silence and come to terms with it. And some people, unfortunately, deal with that in better and more productive ways than others. You know, we can get into this. But I will just say that, Jenny, my wife has been so incredibly tremendous and supportive. And without her love and support, I would not be in the place that I am today.

Samantha Spittle 22:03
I'm grateful for her and her supportive view. And I'd really appreciate you commenting on how hard it is. Because I think that one reason with shame, what shame tells us no matter what the topic is, is it says, you are better off keeping this part of you hidden, your life will be better if you do not expose this truth. And I think that, you know, sexual abuse is huge in that. And you know, whether it's because it gets you as you mentioned earlier, you dissociate or you don't realize what it was, but tackling it. It's really, really hard. But I think you're here and I and just in my own life and walking it out. Even though it's really hard. It's also really worth it. And I can say that from my position being in a supportive role, and especially being how much trauma has come from all of it. You know, there's it's almost like a, when there's an explosion, you know, and the rumbles get hit. There's a lot of shrapnel I think with a lot of things. But still to say it's worth it. So I'd love for you to speak on that. Because even though it's really hard, it's really worth it to

Phil Goldstein 23:23
I couldn't agree more. You know, I think that confronting this and reckoning with it, and dealing with not just what happened, but the aftermath of me, speaking about it was has been probably will be the hardest thing that I ever do in my life. But I can't imagine my life or a world in which I continue to remain silent. You know, I was talking online a little bit ago with a gentleman who bought my book, he lives in the UK, and he was telling me that, you know, he himself was was also abused sexually as a boy and has told his wife and his best friend and no one else yet, and he's in his late 50s. And I just can't imagine going another 20 or 30 years, having this inside of me and not telling anybody. You know, I have grown so much as a person as a writer since I disclosed you know, my relationship with my partner has improved my relationship to sex has improved my relationship to myself as improved. And again, I'm not saying it's all You know, rainbows and unicorns and butterflies, because it's not. And things can still be really tough sometimes, in a lot of ways in terms of my personality, and you know, how just how I am, you know, I think that sometimes I'm forgetful and not all there. And sometimes I'm thinking too much about myself. And sometimes I'm not listening well enough. But I definitely think that I'm a better person on a better partner for having talked about this and gotten it off my chest,

Samantha Spittle 25:42
definitely, to recap a few things that I heard. So you know, for people listening, if they are supporting someone walking through that, and as I said, you never know, when you are going to be in this position. Because this is not something you know, that, you know, you know, about, you know, and whether it's this crisis or any crisis. And so you actually said it in one of your poems. And I've talked a lot about this, just because sharing your story, said, I'm so sorry, that happened to you, thank you for trusting me with that information. That's in your this is my story, pull on. And I think that that, for me is like, the first step for when someone says share some really heavy stuff is just acknowledging the heaviness of it, and the trust that someone places in you. And you also mentioned her reading, reading books and trying to educate herself on it, I think, you know, for me, personally, that has, that was really, really helpful. Because there's just so much, there's just so much to it. And so trying to understand as much as as you can, I think, is a great resource.

Phil Goldstein 26:47
Some of the books that I know, that she read, were like healing the incest wound, you know, that's obviously particular to incest. But, you know, there are a lot of great books, you know, for men, specifically, like, abused boys, and beyond betrayal, but there's just, there's a whole wealth of books and knowledge out there, you know, the Body Keeps the Score. There's a new memoir that just came out, that I haven't read yet, but one too, called what my bones now. And it's about CPTSD. So, you know, all kinds of resources out there,

Samantha Spittle 27:27
definitely, that's one thing I've said is, you know, you aren't the first person that this has happened to, you know, whoever is listening that this could that this could be part of their life. And that's unfortunate, but the plus side is that there's resources available. So you don't have to walk this road alone. You know, if people have listened to the podcast early on, when we kicked it off, we used to have, you know, I would have the conversations and then my sound editor and producer, and also husband would join in, we'd kind of have an after show. And so we kind of thought today, we would do an after show, but kind of part of the show. So Jeremy, why don't you introduce yourself?

Phil Goldstein 28:07
Hi, Phil. Hey, Jeremy.

Jeremy Spittle 28:09
I know, we met just, you know, half an hour or so ago. But it's good to finally just see you meet you. I also read your book, which was beautiful. Thank you. I mean, thank you for writing it. First of all, because it's it is an important conversation to, to bring up. I mean, I've shared my story with Samantha and close friends and multiple therapists. But never, you know, publicly stated. I've been a little apprehensive about it,

Samantha Spittle 28:52
forced down that wound, you know, when they say to share from a scar, not a wound. And I think that one reason we were you know, I was very grateful, as I said in the beginning of the podcast is that, you know, this is something for a few years you've been walking through. And it's funny, because you said it was about a year and a half, two years. And we're at about two and a half years. And it's something that when you go through something, and it's such a big part of your life, it hits so deep. And especially the irony of like having this podcast started before any of this other stuff came about. It's been something that we both felt called to do want to speak on but not knowing the right time and whatnot. So we're kind of in that, you know, I guess you'd call it the messy middle where

Jeremy Spittle 29:40
I'd say we're on the downhill slope, the hill.

Samantha Spittle 29:45
So thanks for being a part of our journey of kind of walk navigating this

Phil Goldstein 29:49
so sure. I mean, I think that another thing to convey to your listeners and that I'm sure both of you know is that you know the healing journey is is not a linear progression or path. And there's lots of ups and downs and, you know, sliding backward and two step forward one step back, and, you know, hopefully, obviously, over time, you know, there's a progression toward healing and then, you know, post traumatic growth. But it's it's not a easy or, you know, straight path. And so I think it's important to emphasize that and to give both of yourselves, you know, some grace when it comes to, you know, that, that journey, it's, it's not easy, as we said, it's really

Jeremy Spittle 30:43
hard. And anybody that's kind of will be going through the same similar journey, are going through it now that that is important to understand that it's the nobody, nobody's experience is exactly like anybody else's. And nobody's journey journey is exactly like anybody else's. So 100% Yeah, it's funny, just your story, and my story are very similar. And I was sexually abused as a child around the same age by my older brother came to terms with it a little bit later in life. But better late than never, I think, for sure. So just reading your book was cathartic. There were some poems that I could really, really feel the anger. You know, I know that anger. That, I don't know if if the poems came from a place of anger, but at least they, they brought it that feeling up in me, there were a lot of feelings that your poetry brought up in me, which I think is really important. There's an aspect to the journey that I've gone through of being able to name feelings,

Phil Goldstein 32:15
no, I, a lot of what you're saying, you know, really resonates with me. I think that I also, consciously or unconsciously, was in a position where I couldn't feel my feelings or felt like I couldn't express how I was actually feeling for fear of what would happen to me or fear of the reaction from my parents. And, you know, after I told them, they said, you know, of course, we wouldn't have, you know, done anything, of course, we would have supported you. And unfortunately, they weren't super supportive of me as an adult, after I disclosed, they didn't really want to delve into the past, and how and why this happened and what was going on in our family while the abuse was happening. But I think that it's kind of besides the point, which is, I as a child, you know, felt like I couldn't tell them and isn't that in and of itself worth exploring? Why was it that I felt like I couldn't, and you know, I don't think that they wanted to touch those things, because it would have been too messy to open up that can of worms. That's definitely, you know, one of the joys of of writing it, is to see which poems resonate with people,

Jeremy Spittle 33:47
even the even just the title of the book, How to bury a boy at sea, without even having read the book. And I know that's the last poem in the book, which I really enjoyed that poem, but just the title itself. I remember after having brought all this stuff up in therapy and starting to dig into my trauma and everything. I had a dream. And I remember it still because I saw you had that one pulled up called luggage. But I was in the middle of a body of water is a lake I think. And I was carrying luggage and the luggage just pulled me down, way down into the lake and I and that's when I woke up because I didn't want to drown. But But I remember waking up and thinking about it and there was some meaning around that dream of I've just I've been drowning with this this baggage for for such a long time. And you, you and Samantha were talking earlier about how important it is to try to get that average age of 52. down some, I think there's, I think it would be beneficial if if people could work on this, this trauma. And it's not just childhood sexual abuse, it's any trauma really, but work at it at a younger age. But an agent, you know, inappropriate age.

Phil Goldstein 35:40
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I would like that, too. I mean, I, I don't wish this on anyone, obviously, and I don't, I can't imagine, like I said, being a middle aged person, and, you know, still carrying it around, I think it's, it's tough, obviously, you know, to come to terms and to even speak it out loud to a single other person. Because once you do, then, you know, it becomes real. And it's like, whoa, this happened to me. And so I think it's important to also emphasize that, you know, a lot of people, when they disclose a past trauma, especially something like child sexual abuse, they need to be in a position and a place in their life where they feel safe doing. So you need to be in a relationship where you feel safe, you need to be in a time and a place in your life where you feel safe. And it obviously took me almost 20 years to get to that point. And so, you know, I don't think that there's any shame in, you know, waiting until you feel like you're at the point in your life where you're comfortable enough to, to deal with it. I mean, I think that that's, you know, there's all these people, sometimes, you know, people in your own family saying, you know, why didn't you say something? Why don't you speak up? Why didn't you tell us, you should have told us and it's like, I just couldn't, I was not in a place mentally, emotionally, psychologically, you know, sometimes, even physically, where I felt safe enough to talk about it. And I just think that it's so important to underline. You know, like, there's, there's so much that goes into deciding how and when you disclose, and nobody except you as the survivor gets to determine the appropriate time for that. You know, and then, after you after you disclose, that's when a lot of those things come spilling out. I mean, to, to circle back to something, Jeremy, that you said earlier, if the poems were written from anger, I certainly think some of them were, you know, because there's a lot to be angry about. And I was somebody who, for a long time, suppress that anger and didn't allow myself to feel anger. And then that kind of burst out in these really unexpected and unfortunate and unhealthy ways sometimes, and still does. To a certain extent, I think that I'm a lot better about it than I used to be. But yeah, there's anger, there's sadness, there's isolation, there's longing, there's healing, there's happiness, ultimately. You know, there's acceptance. It's, it's a whole kind of spectrum and journey,

Jeremy Spittle 39:00
right? And I felt all of them, I felt all of them while I was reading. And I just didn't know how to express what I was feeling as a child. You know. Your targeting really helps people to understand what a child is going through it up here in their head, when these types of things are going on.

Phil Goldstein 39:26
I tried, you know, as best as I could. You know, I think that it's really hard to explain and communicate that sense of fear and shame and isolation that you experienced as a child when when you've been betrayed and abused and it's tough to go back and sit in that place and be in that in that mind frame. But I think that it's, it's really necessary. I mean, I think that, you know, it was interesting after the book was accepted by stillhouse, you know, I wound up writing a ton more poems that got put into the book, and we added poems and took poems out and edited and shaped the collection into what it is now. But, you know, my editors really encouraged me to write more poems about my childhood, and specifically about things that were not directly addressing or related to the abuse itself. And I think that that was really important, because it hopefully helps kind of, you know, make things a little bit more three dimensional, and provides this, you know, mosaic of what life was like. Because, you know, it, I, my childhood wasn't all bad, you know, I grew up in a nice middle class, you know, family and with with a childhood that was full of a lot of happiness, it just so happened, that there was this dark rot in the middle of it that, you know, kind of was silently spreading out. And I think it's, it's important when we're doing this work to kind of make ourselves uncomfortable a little bit sometimes, and to go back there, because if you don't, then you don't really come to terms with it, and you don't move on, you know, it's called post traumatic stress, you know, for a reason, it's after the trauma, and you have to address the trauma if you're going to heal and move on. Yeah,

Samantha Spittle 42:04
it's funny, as you were talking, I was smiling because I was thinking, I just came, I'm a verbal processor, you know. And so, my thoughts were swirling, and I thought, oh, my gosh, I have the endorsement for the book, you know, here's my little blurb to give, except it won't be a blurb. It'll be like three pages of paragraphs of me talking. But for me to read your book. And so this is kind of speaking to people that are supporting someone who's unpacking childhood sexual abuse, I think it's imperative to read it. Because, you know, as Jeremy pointed out, for him, it was very cathartic to see so much of his journey, you know, even if the stories are different, there's just so much connection there for him. For me, you when you were talking about your childhood, and how, you know, there was, I love the way you said it about that visual of you know, it's like a good childhood, there was just this darkness, you know, there was like this. And so I remember reading some of the poems, it was like, it made me It reminded me like, there's so much more than just this trauma going on, you know, and I think that it's hard for people, especially from the outside looking in, like, What are you talking about your life's fine, your life is good, what do you mean, you know, you had a good childhood. So it kind of just helped paint that full picture. And the other thing is, you talked about, you know, not wanting to be uncomfortable and talking about this. I mean, just we've seen it in our own life, there's a desire to sweep it, not only sweep it under the rug, but to address it and keep it very clinical and or, you know, wasn't that big of a deal. I mean, you could insert lots of, in my opinion, excuses. But it keeps it very far. And there's certain words, and I apologize if this is triggering. But I remember reading a few of your poems, and you know, even just words like, semen, ejaculation, those kinds of things. It makes, you know, my first thought is, oh, that's makes me uncomfortable. But that's the reality of abuse. And I think, for someone who's supporting someone walking through this, it may be really uncomfortable. But that's not my reality. And I think, to just understand a little bit more of the seriousness, and the trauma and whatnot. It's just something that as we've walked us out, Jeremy did a lot of writing hits, you know, I'm a verbal processor, he writes, and what he's felt comfortable sharing over the last two and a half years, there's just been times where I read certain things and it caught me off guard, but I was so thankful to read it because it just reminded me how real it is. And I think that not everyone feels comfortable sharing their story and nor should they, you know, no one owes you their story. And that's why I'm just even more grateful for your book, because it's something that if you know, someone, you need to read it, because you need to see the reality of it, you know, and the full picture of it, you know, the good times, you know, I was thinking of the one poem, it was,

Phil Goldstein 45:18
what did that takes him?

Samantha Spittle 45:20
Yeah, what about what Abed takes in that one in particular, you know, just things like that, that I just feel like, these things need to be talked about? You know, I don't I can't think of a pretty way to say it. But it's just it's reality. And I think that to deny someone's reality, and to deny the reality of what we're really talking about, just makes it easier to sweep the trauma under the rug and not address it. So.

Phil Goldstein 45:44
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I completely agree, I think that you have to confront these things head on, even if it makes you uncomfortable. I mean, that's, that's the whole point is that, of course, it makes you uncomfortable. Why wouldn't it? It totally should. But that's the whole point is that, you know, you look at it in the face, you address it, and you try to reckon with it, you come to terms with it, you tried to understand as best as you can, you know, what happened, why it happened. And the answers that you come up with are probably not going to be perfect or complete. But you you try to do the best you can. And I think that that is the bravest thing that any survivor, or any person who's done through trauma can can do is to try to make sense of it after it's happened. You know, I've been called by my brother a coward for not sort of talking about it with him man to man, you know, and for going public about things. I don't accept that label. I think that it's It's cowardly, not to address it, it's cowardly, not to talk about it publicly, It's cowardly not to confront these things head on, and name them and not shy away from talking about exactly what it is that happened. That's, that's how I see it, you know, and a lot of these things are very sort of connected to whatever the family systems dynamic was, if it happened within a family. And early on, I remember my therapist saying something to me, like, you know, and she's somebody who's done this kind of trauma work for 20 plus years. So I think that, you know, she knows of where she speaks. And she said, basically, in her experience, when child sexual abuse has happened within a family, there's one of two routes that it can take, typically, when the person has been abused, decides to disclose that the abuse happened, either. Everybody sort of like, gets together in a room, and you work through it, and you deal with it together as a family, and it's not swept under the rug. Or, you know, the person has been abused and their family kind of go separate ways. And unfortunately, that's, you know, that the latter scenario is kind of where I am right now, with my parents. And it's tough look, it's I'm not trying to downplay it, or, or say that it's easy to come to terms with this, you know, especially if it's within a family. Because it's not, it's not easy on anybody. But I think that, you know, the overriding concern should be for the person who was abused, because they didn't have the support, and the love and the attention that they needed as a child. And yes, now they're seeking it as an adult, and they're not a child anymore, but they still need that. And when you don't get that after you've disclosed this really horrific trauma. It you know, it only serves to compound things and really make you feel even more alone and feel like Wow, did I do something wrong by disclosing this because I'm getting all this kind of negative reaction.

Samantha Spittle 49:45
Yeah. Well, Phil, thank you so much. I feel like we just cracked the surface so we might have to have you back. If you're willing to come back another time. To dive into this more. I appreciate you staying on longer for everyone listening. I think your book is truly important for both survivors to read to connect, knowing that they're not alone, and also for anyone who loves or supports a survivor to really be drawn, drawn into the story drawn into their experience, and because even if it's, as Jeremy said earlier, even if it's a different experience, there's just so many similarities. And I'll be honest with you, I'm not normally a poetry reader and I, I went faster through it than Jeremy did, because one probably started different reading styles, you know, at the time, and he of course, had to take his time because it was a lot more triggering. But I still got so much from it, just, you know, just it was like going through that journey, the your childhood, your adulthood, unpacking it, the experiences. And so I can truly say, I really think everyone needs to read this to, to understand it better. Your book is just a great way to take that next level to kind of make that emotional connection and not just an intellectual connection to this trauma. So

Phil Goldstein 51:01
yeah, I really appreciate that. And again, for your listeners, the book is called How to bury a boy at sea. And it's available now.

Samantha Spittle 51:11
Definitely, we'll have a link to that. And we'll also have links at the back of your book, you also have resources, and so we'll be sure to share those resources as well, as well as a copy of the book. And, you know, we've had some other authors on here, and I think it's important to support the work that you do, because, you know, we need to share more stories. So thank you both for sharing today and being here. Yeah,

Phil Goldstein 51:35
for sure. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.